Didn't get a pic, but....

Mitch, the randiest snake ever, has been courting both BPs and JCPs and locking up with my female balls. Late last night/early this morning I caught him locked up with one of my female jungles! Will it lead to "Carpalls"? I dunno, but here's to hoping.

Oh, and just to add to my evening's enjoyment.. EVERY baby jungle carpet python ate for me without any hesitation today. I opened the hatchling tubs to lazy babies with fat bellies. I am SOOO happy with this turn of events. Number 8 has issues of his own and may simply remain with me so that I can see to any special needs that may arise due to his enlarged heart, but he's taking meals all by himself and now his brother Number 7 finally took his first meal all by himself. I'm thrilled! These two boys had been giving me so much grief with their constant refusal to feed but it looks like that may be all behind us now.

I have been looking at JCPs on Youtube. Very cool snakes - might have to have one some day...

If you are interested in jcps, sandy has a few left ;-) I would be stoked for a carpall haha.

I'd be happy to set you up with a baby at a discounted price. Just let me know.

The Anti-Poon wrote:

If you are interested in jcps, sandy has a few left ;-) I would be stoked for a carpall haha.

Same here. I fell in love with Steve Argo's carpall and carbomb pics at Morelia forums.

Some of his carbombs (08 and 07), for instance:

we may be interested in the future if the offer was open to others as well.

everyone has to start posting pics of what they got, as we will if there is a place for it in here, as the camera is hopefully working now with new batteries.

Well, tables seem to have turned and now Mitch is taking a break for the most part but now Tess has started. I caught him wiggling his spurs along the side of one of the ball girls.

yay! ill have to brush up on my hybrids so i can keep up with what is a mix of what. cant think of what a carbomb is, but the walls i saw on the one site im on were awesomeness. its silly how most are still tring to perpetuate the myth that hybrids are sterile, and not ever found in nature, then say theyre an abomination in the eyes of god. lol
so you might want an access granted only area for the hybrid talk even if anyone who is even slightly interested in the novelty of them is wanting to stay in good terms with the apparent majority of the community. pretty much mostly how it was warned to me to tell you from friends at hybrid haven, as most are rebels in the herp community now (though some make alot more money than before, while others say you wont make any at hybrids) thatve been outed on other forums (apparently the herp nazi are trolling everywere (for example like TWRA does for the states "protection" of its herps).

laughing dog wrote:

yay! ill have to brush up on my hybrids so i can keep up with what is a mix of what. cant think of what a carbomb is, but the walls i saw on the one site im on were awesomeness. its silly how most are still tring to perpetuate the myth that hybrids are sterile, and not ever found in nature, then say theyre an abomination in the eyes of god. lol
so you might want an access granted only area for the hybrid talk even if anyone who is even slightly interested in the novelty of them is wanting to stay in good terms with the apparent majority of the community. pretty much mostly how it was warned to me to tell you from friends at hybrid haven, as most are rebels in the herp community now (though some make alot more money than before, while others say you wont make any at hybrids) thatve been outed on other forums (apparently the herp nazi are trolling everywere (for example like TWRA does for the states "protection" of its herps).

I can't say I've heard of many hybrids found in the wild. Intergrades, sure, but not hybrids.

The big stink among the herp community when it comes to hybrids and intergrades is that many are the result of breeders who go on to misrepresent their animals when they can't sell them legitimately. Many people looking to breed snakes won't knowingly buy intergrades unless they are also looking to work with intergrades. The mixed genetics will ruin their intended breeding projects. I can say that for myself, the only reason I would buy a hybrid or intergrade would be as a pet only. I wouldn't have use of a hybrid or intergrade in my projects and it would only overcomplicate the genetics I'm working with. My ball python x jungle carpet python shenanigans are more for curiosity's sake than anything and if I get hybrid babies cool. It may be that I get nothing but ordinary baby balls and ordinary baby jungles from the females in that enclosure and that's fine by me. Morelia bloodlines are hard enough to discern without adding more genes into the equation, anyway. If the animals in question are represented honestly for what they are, there isn't a problem except perhaps for the ethics behind it.

oh, i fully agree, i just know that about a dozen at least snakes are already hybridized from way back when i was seeing them brought in the country as a child (guess it means nothing if you got fresh blood from wild more recently), but now these names that were given to the mixes are being sold as pure bloodlines. having gotten hybrids before i know what a pain it is if theyre mislabeled. they look cool though just as a pet project, and everyone who is breeding anything to any decent extent should always keep accurate records. i had on the hybrid site there is numerus accounts of natural herp hybridizing (especially cottonheads, which ive had a pair of un knowingly at the time). also many other hybrids if you look them up, most recent in the news being black brown, and grizzly, polar bear crossings (theyve even done genetics testing, which is something also done on some JCPs, and okeetee corn snakes, but not affordable to everyone, confirm what i say about at least most of them being hybrids). good and bad, snakes are the easiest and most often hybridized, wild and captive (heard of supposed unique looking corn snakes eating each other when paired to mate). so in short i like some for their beauty, and personality (they pick up behavior from female, most rest from male, with them combining colors and patterns, of both Geno and pheno types), really unless your looking for something thats unique, but not for full scale sale or even profit. its interesting to try if you have one of each sex thats not fitting into current breeding projects, or you just want see it all happen with two differant animals you happen to have opposite sexes of each (think thats manly how it goes, besides in the begining with animals that were banned to bring in more from other countries, and there was problems with some feeding, and one of the sexes breeding with their own kind.

laughing dog wrote:

oh, i fully agree, i just know that about a dozen at least snakes are already hybridized from way back when i was seeing them brought in the country as a child (guess it means nothing if you got fresh blood from wild more recently), but now these names that were given to the mixes are being sold as pure bloodlines.

You'll have to elaborate a bit here for me as I can't say I'm familiar with at least a dozen snakes that were hybridized before being brought to the US.

laughing dog wrote:

having gotten hybrids before i know what a pain it is if theyre mislabeled. they look cool though just as a pet project, and everyone who is breeding anything to any decent extent should always keep accurate records.

They often do keep fairly accurate records of what was bred to what, but that doesn't mean that their buyers will be privvy to all or any of that information if there's concern that the sale won't bounce. Being stuck with a bunch of animals you can't move is no picnic but there are a lot of breeders who wouldn't think twice about misrepresenting their clutches in order to move them out and make whatever profit they can.

i guess i should have not assumed it was implied in me just saying "keeping accurate records" implied sharing them also.

as for the hybrids, i meant that they were hybridized after first being brought here, before they were really popular with everyone being able to care for them with ease (mainly the Australian, but African ones also). there should be an old REPTILES article on it to find if you know how to back look them up (im not that comp literate). the snakes are seen in the wild hybridizing alot in Australia, and most African sources are known to just keep most large snakes all together in breeding pits where theyve been seen interbreeding, and said how they merely discard the undesirables. plus either way when they do genetic and DNA testing they find a surprising amount of hybridized genes in the different pet pythons, corns, and kings, thatve been tested. the most documented ones are the cotton heads (cotton mouth x copperhead), the JCPs (forget the cross that was crossed back for the look), and okeetee corn snakes (apparently they are mixed with regular corns, or hybridized with other colubrids, as the genes that were analyzed as the now okeetee pheno are plain corn geno, and only plain corn pheno was actually carrying the pure geno of the documented okeetee pheno created. dont ask me how that could be, unless it was purposely or accidentally done by the creater of the okeetee, or a big flub up in the genetics lab).

laughing dog wrote:

as for the hybrids, i meant that they were hybridized after first being brought here, before they were really popular with everyone being able to care for them with ease (mainly the Australian, but African ones also). there should be an old REPTILES article on it to find if you know how to back look them up (im not that comp literate). the snakes are seen in the wild hybridizing alot in Australia, and most African sources are known to just keep most large snakes all together in breeding pits where theyve been seen interbreeding, and said how they merely discard the undesirables. plus either way when they do genetic and DNA testing they find a surprising amount of hybridized genes in the different pet pythons, corns, and kings, thatve been tested. the most documented ones are the cotton heads (cotton mouth x copperhead), the JCPs (forget the cross that was crossed back for the look), and okeetee corn snakes (apparently they are mixed with regular corns, or hybridized with other colubrids, as the genes that were analyzed as the now okeetee pheno are plain corn geno, and only plain corn pheno was actually carrying the pure geno of the documented okeetee pheno created. dont ask me how that could be, unless it was purposely or accidentally done by the creater of the okeetee, or a big flub up in the genetics lab).

There's plenty of dispute when it comes to JCPs. It's incredibly hard nowadays to find a 100% morelia spilota cheynei. Jungles are continually intergrated for what I presume the breeder must think is an extraordinary animal. I couldn't disagree more. I love the size, temperament, and coloration of a plain-jane jungle carpet. I have little to no interest in other carpets. I think most of them are overly large, pissy, and/or dull in coloration and pattern. That's just my opinion, though. Others may adore them and that's perfectly fine. Our first came from Will Bird of Extraordinary Ectotherms in Kentucky and I have no doubt it's anything more than cheynei. My other two came from two other breeders and one I'm not so sure hasn't got some coastal blood in there somewhere considering she just seems to get bigger and bigger each year while the other has stayed within the norm for jungles.

I believe the Kisatchie is an intergrade and I know that the "Creamsicles" and "Rootbeers" are hybrids. I'm really not sure I follow on the Okeetee thing. Okeetee corns aren't a seperate species or separate sub-species of corn. They're a particular "look" of normal just as the Miami corn is another variant of the "classic" color/pattern. I'd be interested in reading from your source. Genetics is an interesting realm of study, but not one I really cared about when I was in school. Nonetheless I learn as I go now.

honestly, i really think part of the austrailian snake interbreeding prob is because of newbies like me who really wouldnt know the differance in buying or selling them (though i at least have the sense, and decency to ask people like you all who may have more of a clue), as at one time and somewhat now with whatever reason for variances, some seem so similar to the less trained. my whole thing was that some of the ones thatll make a stink about hybrids as pets will say that some will look and act still like one or the other parent but will still carry mixed blood. im not sure it should matter for pets, as these same people have stuff up about there hybrids, and designer dogs, that wouldnt be natural at all either. as time goes on, and people "progress" there is less space for all animals anyway, and there will be no were for all these pure breed animals to be in the wild anyway, so there only existance is sadly as pets in the future. we breed for tameness, shape, size, and color that is completely unnatural, never mind that most snakes arnt nearly as strong living there lives in a perfectly controlled confined environment, and arnt even exercised as to hunt or kill there prey anymore, so the progession, or even stablization of the these animals are stunted at the least, so theyre no longer noble wild animals that we would be suddenly be terrible for tampering with them. that goes the same for the arguement of "what if hybrids escaped and took over an irreplaceable ecological niches occupied by other animals and destroy the environment"? if someone doesnt like some one or something fine, it shouldnt be a big deal, but to give a bunch of excuses.... why? just say: "thats stephen" hes a dick!" simple enough? i just see all these big things about why hybrids are the devil, and im wondering if some of these people just have to much free time on there hands (i know i do, though less and less). look up the anti hybrid discussion on hybrid haven, its a hoot, though stupid, though a riot cause the guy doing most of the insults is a hybrid breeder himself (maybe it was just american hybrid enthusiasts he hates).

I find the idea of hybrid designer animals interesting, but not something I would really invest much of myself into and arguing with those who want to blend species isn't really something I'd want to invest in, either as I imagine the logic on both sides is circular and neither is truly in the right or wrong. I'll pass on the hybrid forum, thanks.

i didnt know you had to joinn to look at the odd topics (theyre good for laughs). some make alot, most dont (im guessing with most things, most dont make alot, but probly very much so for hybrids). thats what i was tring to say also is that it should be more of a curiosity, but not something to really do full force (specailly since most on here seem to have awsome stuff enough already). so my mistake if i was misleading in my insomniac ramblings (i acually got some sleep earlier, so yay me, and all of you who are confused by my posts). breeding and genetics just amuse me, and the thought of occasionally seeing something totally combined or differant from the norm is neet to me personally.